Life is worth all the efforts it demands from us

What are you most proud of professionally in your life?

Pride is not something I have particularly cultivated in my life:

Arrogance, perhaps, but not pride. So it seems difficult for me to answer this question. I assume the reason you're asking me this is because you're interested in my view of what I consider the most valuable or perhaps most satisfying achievement or accomplishment in my life.

So then, given this conceptual differentiation, I have to answer the following question for myself:

Was the greatest achievement of my life that I saved the life of a young girl who was buried by an avalanche during a snowstorm high up in the Alps? Was it when I was climbing in Red Rocks and managed to lead climb a 5.10 route with minimal protection? Or was it back in high school, when I defended a classmate who was being beaten by a group of boys who didn’t like him? Was it my refusal during a special mission east of the Iron Curtain to carry out an order from my commander that I judged to be unethical and inappropriate? Or was it the development of NLP formats, raising my two children, Mike and Kathleen, the first dance with the love of my life, the drawing of a Chinese statue of a war horse I made as a boy? Maybe it was a simple question I gently and cautiously asked an old, tired, and sad man I met one evening on a path on the outskirts of Mombasa. A question to which I received a radiant smile in response. That smile finally convinced me that life is worth all the struggles it demands of us. Or maybe it was the sweet sound of the voice of a little girl singing a song. A song she heard me humming. Or maybe something else entirely...

Honestly, it is impossible for me to answer this question that I formulated.

Would you use the name NLP again today, and if not, what would you call it instead?

The name NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Patterning) is an adequate demonstration that neither Bandler nor I had any idea about marketing: that much is clear. But no matter what it's called, it's out there and changing the world.

The name reminds me of Big Brother from Orwell’s novel 1984.

Who was/is your role model and what is special about this person?

No, I (John) actually don't have a specific role model. On my travels and adventures, I have met some remarkable people, but so far no one I would consider the ideal fit for the role you are asking about.

Which ability or personality would you like to model?

We will recognize the ability or the personality when we encounter it.

Which modeling project was personally most valuable to you?

There are many – if we remember that NLP modeling is actually complete (completion of the third step) when the modeler can reliably reproduce the actions of the model (the genius). Essentially the first three of the five steps of the NLP modeling process, as explained by Bostic and me in [my book] Whispering in the Wind. The 4th and 5th steps, coding and testing the effectiveness of the program, are optional.

Given all that, I can definitely name a modeling project that was special to me: climbing frozen waterfalls.

What role did Gregory Bateson play in the development of NLP?

Gregory Bateson was an inspiration to many people at the initial meetings. These meetings were the beginning of something that ultimately led to the development of NLP. He was particularly interested in the complex relationship between conscious and unconscious processes, or if you prefer, between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, i.e., the so-called dominant and non-dominant hemispheres. Although Bateson was not officially involved in the development of NLP, it is clear that he fundamentally influenced many of the founding fathers.

I was very fortunate to hold a professorship at Kresge College at the University of California, Santa Cruz, at the same time Gregory Bateson was teaching there as a guest professor.

What is needed for NLP to spread further in the world and perhaps to be used more in schools and kindergartens?

A simple and very important question: fortunately, the answer from our point of view is just as simple: a group of teachers who are genuinely committed to supporting their students on the path to kindness and excellence through targeted state changes. We are referring here to teachers who are authentic and genuinely committed to integrating NLP and its applications appropriately into the educational context. What are you most proud of professionally in your life? Pride is not something I have particularly cultivated in my life buried by an avalanche during a snowstorm high up in the Alps? Was it when I was climbing in Red Rocks with minimal protection simple question I gently and cautiously asked an old, tired, and sad man I met one evening on a path on the outskirts of Mombasa met some remarkable people, but so far no one I would consider the ideal fit for the role you are asking about "We had no idea about marketing, that much is clear." that ultimately led to the development of NLP. He was particularly interested in the complex relationship to transfer and establish it there.

How will NLP continue to develop in the coming years?

John Grinder:

The answer to your question lies in the future. Clearly, we are not prophets. And in fact, NLP is now in the hands of its practitioners. These people (and you, the questioner, are probably among them) will decide how it will evolve.

However, if you would like to know how we would like to see NLP develop further, we would be happy to offer you the following comment. Perhaps you will find it useful. First of all, we want to make sure that we are talking about the same model of the world, and therefore we have decided to make some simple, yet essential, preliminary remarks:

1. The distinction between process and content NLP is a collection of process-based patterns. The key lies in the distinction between process and content. Anyone who claims to apply NLP is applying patterns for processes. During the intervention intended to bring about change, they strictly refuse to delve deeper into the client's content level. (It is about working with the content, not within the content.)

2. The reasons for applying NLP. There are only two reasons that justify the application of NLP patterns, whether classic or New Code. These reasons are:

a) Creating choice.

That is, creating options in an area of the client's life where they lack alternatives. (Of course, this also applies to self-application)

b) Improving quality of life.

This means bringing more quality into the experienced behavior and perception that people consider their life. In other words, improving experiences that are essential to them. We have the impression that very few people who want to apply NLP consistently take into full account the distinction between content and process level. A deep understanding of this distinction and the ability to make it instantly is of great importance. During coaching, for example, one must be able to make this distinction repeatedly on the side; otherwise, it is highly unlikely that one can work effectively and ethically with NLP patterns.

3. No uniform patterns in the NLP world

A characteristic that distinguishes NLP from other approaches to change work is the non-uniform source of the patterns summarized under the term NLP. Therefore, there is a certain inconsistency in the patterns. (Editor's note: Patterns here refer to, e.g., hypnotic language patterns). A number of individuals claim to teach NLP. One of the most well-known among them is Robert Dilts, who repeatedly fails to accurately present the central point of NLP modeling.

"Note from Stephan Landsiedel: Grinder has been engaging in discussions on this point for many years. It is apparently one of his favorite contentious topics. From our point of view, there is no right or wrong here. Dilts has created a very useful approach to modeling that has enabled many people to understand modeling for the first time. Both approaches are useful and are taught in NLP courses outside the Grinder-NLP world. In my view, such a detailed aside on something that wasn't even asked is highly interesting."

Stephan Landsiedel

Comment on NLP Modeling

In our book "Whispering in the Wind" (Bostic and Grinder, 2001), we worked out and explained the phases of NLP modeling in five simple steps. On his website, Robert Dilts clearly accepts the distinction we proposed between NLP modeling and analytical modeling. Nevertheless, he continues to publicly present his analytical modeling under the term NLP modeling. However, these are two fundamentally different approaches.

Analytical modeling is a left-hemispheric activity of the conscious mind, which has very little in common with NLP modeling. Analytical modeling is not based on the ability to reproduce the actions of the geniuses who originally inspired NLP modeling.

Instead, it is more of a game that involves assigning certain linguistic forms to the behavior of these geniuses.

We had actually expected that the lack of success of analytical modeling in trying to produce actors capable of replicating the behavior of the modeled geniuses would sooner or later provide sufficient evidence of the inadequacy of this approach.

In any case, enough evidence is provided for all involved and interested parties to notice the difference between the two methods – analytical modeling and NLP modeling – and to lead to a greater appreciation of NLP modeling.

In reality, however, Robert Dilts and others continue to teach without considering the methodological distinction, thereby confusing people who are full of good intentions and interested in what NLP has to offer. There is one essential ability for practicing NLP modeling successfully. That is the ability to choose to maintain a state of not knowing. Only this allows the unconscious assimilation of excellent patterns without them being filtered through preexisting knowledge.

This ability seems to be a choice unavailable to most certified NLP practitioners. This apparently leads to a fallback into familiar and conscious behavior patterns, primarily located in the left brain hemisphere, as is typical in our Western school system – namely the analytical approach to modeling.

Clearly, there are excellent applications for analytical modeling: all situations where analytical modeling brings about useful consequences. Unfortunately, analytical modeling is not involved when NLP practitioners (those who truly practice it or those who only hold a certificate) recognize and code behavior patterns of geniuses.

We take the time to highlight the two key characteristics that distinguish NLP from other approaches: first, the identification and coding of genius-level patterns, and second, the congruent, effective, and ecological application of the resulting NLP patterns and formats.

Considering these two characteristics that set NLP apart from other approaches, we can now turn our attention to the question of how we envision the future development of NLP. The direction we would support is the recognition of the underlying processes that are essential for the effective application of NLP.

Let’s look at a simple example. One of the most essential and highly effective patterns modeled and coded early in the history of NLP is mirroring. This group of techniques (direct mirroring, cross-mirroring, lateral mirroring, and position shifting) aims to quickly create deep rapport between the client and the change agent – such a relationship is a key element in change work.

For Pucelik, Bandler, and me, after modeling Satir and others, it was crystal clear that there had to be a kind of biofeedback mechanism that would be established and utilized (instrumentalized) between the client and the change worker. When the change worker adjusts their posture, gestures, speech rhythm, breathing, etc., to the client, the client will very quickly begin to behave as if there is a deep connection and rapport between them.

As the client’s physical sensations match the observable characteristics of the change worker, a

biofeedback loop is created in which the client perceives in the change worker exactly the nonverbal components (breathing, movements, tone of voice, etc.) that they also perceive directly through their own voice and bodily sensations. That’s how rapport is built!

Through trial and error, it became completely clear to us that mirroring techniques are highly effective in building rapport. We also worked out that a biofeedback loop is involved, and at the time we were already satisfied with that (it was the early 1970s, after all).

A few decades after we modeled, coded, and tested the mirroring strategy in numerous contexts, scientists discovered a special group of neurons in macaque monkeys. These spe-

Through direct NLP modeling, it is possible to identify and code highly effective techniques without access to the neurological processes involved – that is, without explicit, conscious, linguistic knowledge of the underlying mechanisms.

Once the neurological processes are discovered, the existing knowledge allows us to explore the application of the techniques. For example, this work led to the discovery of auditory mirror neurons. These function similarly to visual mirror neurons and are among other things used for language acquisition.

Perhaps a metaphor can help illustrate my point here: Experienced trackers can, by examining tracks, footprints, and other indicators, not only identify the animal but also make statements about its condition: its hunger, fear, panic, flight, …

Calibration is the mother of all NLP techniques – without the ability to continuously make fine distinctions in the visual, auditory, kinesthetic, … systems and recognize differences, it is impossible to understand the state the client is in, and therefore impossible to know which format would be appropriate to bring the client closer to the choices and quality of experience they are missing.

An analogy here is a blind pilot – as a recreational pilot, few things seem more disturbing than sitting in an airplane flown by a blind pilot. (Editor’s note: Recreational pilots fly under visual flight rules (VFR), not instrument flight rules (IFR) as in commercial airliners).

So what we hope to see in the coming decades regarding the development of NLP is a deepening of research into the underlying biochemical, physiological, and neurological processes that are currently the focus of the calibration work we perform as agents of change.

Note from Stephan Landsiedel:

I find this statement very exciting because earlier he emphasized that it was possible to develop great techniques like mirroring without this knowledge, and that the analytical scientific approach is not recommended.

We hope to find NLP practitioners who deeply educate themselves on physiology, neurology, and biochemical processes so they can understand what lies behind the calibration we currently use to detect the client's state – and in doing so, also recognize which additional techniques might be useful to bring us to the goal, the goal of the client we are working with.

Note from Stephan Landsiedel: I see the future of NLP less in scientifically analyzing already well-proven and successful methods, and more in further developing the tool of modeling and applying it to many new questions. For me, this includes the approaches mentioned by Grinder as well as others. What makes NLP special is that it does not follow classical psychology, but provides its own methodology. NLP therefore includes a unique approach that, however, is far too rarely used. Instead, certain applications are passed on again and again, while the actual essence of NLP is shared less frequently.

Curious about more questions & answers from John Grinder?

Are you interested in how John Grinder evaluates Tony Robbins’ life work, what’s new in NewCode NLP, and whether he could imagine reconciling with Richard Bandler?

You can find the answers in the World of NLP members area.

www.world-of-nlp.org